@Jim
I prefear ATI Radeon 9800 XT or Pro :)

a useful note about AGP ...

- PowerMac G4 AGP (1999), PowerMac G4 Gigabit ethernet (2000), Pegasos1 G3 and Pegasos2 G3 and G4 use an old AGP slot (2x), so only few AGP cards 9600, 9700, 9800 are usable and no way to use newer AGP Ati HD ...

- PowerMac G4 Digital Audio (2001), PowerMac G4 Quicksilver (2001). PowerMac G4 Quicksilver 2002 (2002). PowerMac G4 MDD (2002), PowerMac G4 FW800 (2003), use a newer AGP slot (4x), so all AGP cards 9600, 9700, 9800 are usable and It could be possibile to use newer AGP Ati HD with right ROM flash Macintosh...



[ Edited by Divinity on 2010/7/22 12:10 ]

> Pegasos1 G4

Very rare ;-)

> and Pegasos2 G4 use an old AGP slot

And what about Pegasos II G3? ;-)

I don't know how to deal with 2x AGP slots. I assume they use 3.3 volts as opposed to the 1.5 volts used in most AGP 4x and 8x cards. With 4x AGP, using an 8x AGP card is simply a matter of taping over a few card edge connections. Obviously, computers using the older 2X standard and higher voltage levels could not be made to work with newer video cards.
This leaves me confused. If I'm not mistaken the old Matrox G450 and G550 cards are some of the few cards designed to work in any AGP slot (regardless of voltage).

Does anyone have an idea what the voltage requirements of currently supported cards are?
And what does the Pegasos supply to its AGP slot?
I'm not worried about later Powermacs as all that support 4X AGP should be able to use most recent video cards (with 8X cards requiring some minor modifications).
And, if the older Powermacs only support 2x AGP, is that so bad? I'm still very impressed with the Radeon 7500 and the Voodoo3 2000. 2d on the Voodoo3 is still competitive with many newer cards.

OK, the Mac Radeon 9800 Pro AGP is listed as 2x/4x. I haven't checked the specifications to assure voltage compatibility, but since it is an Apple/ATI video card specifically designed for Powermacs I wouldn't be surprised to find that it works in the older models in question.

On another note, I've noticed that there is a Radeon 9700 vended only by Dell that they called the Radeon 9700TX. Specifications seem to fall between the standard 9700 and the 9700Pro. It should be flashable to an Apple BIOS and with a 4x interface it might be a simpler card to install in a Mac (although pins 3 and 11 still must be disabled).

Details of 2x/4x Apple Radeon 9800pro:
* GPU speed: 380/400 MHz
* Video memory: 128/256 MB
* Memory speed: 680 MHz
* Memory bus: 256 bits
* Resolutions: 640 x 480 to 2048 x 1536
* Ports: DVI-I and ADC on Apple version
* Dual monitor support: yes
* Cooling fan: yes
* Minimum OS: Mac OS X 10.2.5
* Compatible with: Sawtooth, Gigabit Ethernet, Digital Audio,
Quicksilver, Quicksilver 2002, Mirror Drive Door, FireWire 800,
Power Mac G5 models with AGP

It's not an XT, but the pro isn't much slower and it will run in all Powermacs with an AGP slot
.
[ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/22 1:27 ]

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/22 1:28 ]

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/22 1:31 ]

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/22 1:50 ]

> 1.5 volts used in most AGP 4x and 8x cards.

8x speed is AGP 3.0 and thus 0.8 V. Luckily, most AGP 3.0 cards are backwards compatible with AGP 2.0 (1.5 V) and some even with AGP 1.0 (3.3 V).

> Obviously, computers using the older 2X standard and higher voltage levels could not
> be made to work with newer video cards.

Depends on the specific card, see above and see Divinity's posting ("few AGP cards 9600, 9700, 9800 are usable").

> If I'm not mistaken the old Matrox G450 and G550 cards are some of the few
> cards designed to work in any AGP slot (regardless of voltage).

Yes. While speed-wise conforming to AGP 2.0 they are also compatible with both AGP 1.0 and AGP 3.0.

> Does anyone have an idea what the voltage requirements of currently supported
> cards are?

Currently supported Radeons are either AGP 2.0 (1.5 V, like R(V)100, R(V)200, RV250) or AGP 3.0 (0.8 V, like RV280). Most AGP 2.0 cards are backwards compatible to AGP 1.0 (3.3 V). For AGP 3.0 cards see above. Supported Voodoos are all AGP 1.0.

> what does the Pegasos supply to its AGP slot?

See your question (and answers) from half a year ago:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6837&forum=11#70287

> if the older Powermacs only support 2x AGP, is that so bad?

It's just that many AGP 3.0 cards won't work in an AGP 1.0 slot.

> the Mac Radeon 9800 Pro AGP is listed as 2x/4x. I haven't checked the specifications
> to assure voltage compatibility

"2x/4x" means AGP 2.0 (1.5 V) with compatibility to AGP 1.0 (3.3 V). But actually the R350/360 of the Radeon 9800 is an AGP 3.0 (0.8 V) GPU.

> but since it is an Apple/ATI video card specifically designed for Powermacs I wouldn't
> be surprised to find that it works in the older models in question.

Yes, the "2x" part indicates AGP 1.0 (3.3 V) backwards compatibility.

Thanks Andreas,
Its frightening that you remember the answers to questions I've asked better than I do myself.

So, basically, we have nothing to worry regarding any potential video card upgrades. Even the Pegasos would support the cards we've been discussing. While older Powermacs may require specific considerations, everything else is easily upgradable.

That's great news. I only hope we eventually see additional drivers to support the more powerful 9XXX Radeons.

It seems inevitable, but "gimmes' aren't a reasonable way to interact on this forum. Now that I have the information (thanks again), I promise not to repeatedly request this capability.



[ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/22 3:17 ]

> we have nothing to worry regarding any potential video card upgrades. Even the
> Pegasos would support the cards we've been discussing.

Mind you that the discussion half a year ago didn't have a real outcome. The Pegasos II manual states both AGP 2.0 (which would mean 1.5 V) and 3.3 V, which is contradictory. My take on this is that the real specs of the Pegasos II are AGP 1.0, 3.3 V, 1x speed. That would mean the Pegasos II is in the same boat as the older PowerMacs G4, i.e. a specific AGP 3.0 card may or may not run.

Since the Pegasos ignores a video card's onboard BIOS, would an Apple video card work just as well as a PC variant?
If so, then the 2x/4x Radeon 9800 should work in the Pegasos.

It would be nice to keep this legacy machine up to date, rather than see it completely supplanted by Apple hardware.

Quote:

Actually, Pegasos' OF does not ignore video card's onboard BIOS. In fact, it emulates x86 in order to run the card's BIOS so that the card initializes itself - MorphOS drivers rely on that (meaning we didn't have to write all the init code for all the various supported models).

Quote:

Impressed, but not surprised! A combination that guarantees a big smile of pleasure.

Quote:

Sure? And bus/memory bandwidth?

Quote:

Indeed. In fact, wasn't it that only ONE ever existed, in the hands of Gunne Steen, of GGS Data?

Quote:

Here the software (driver) problem is expanded with the bigger, hardware problem: Actually, we'd better forget about adding support for dead old AGP cards. By the time you reach it, the cards will be impossible to obtain. Let's support current PCI-e cards. Here's one. What? Where'e the thing this plugs into?

Solution? Choose computers with built-in graphics functions, like the Mac Mini. What a pleasant coincidence, it even has a familiar Radeon chip...

Quote:

It's more than frightening, it's USUAL! And yet Andreas insists in making us believe he is a human being...

Quote:

So, in the MacMini, the graphics chip is left in the same initialized state as the Pegasos (and Efika) SmartFirmware leaves it? Or does MorphOS 2.5 on MacMini use a different driver for a very similar graphis chip?

@Andreas_Wolf
opsss :) corrected :)

@Jim
Adreas has told you all about AGP :)
here some simple exemples

1) ATI 9800 XT OK for 2x AGP slots and also for 4x AGP slots
http://themacelite.wikidot.com/local--files/flasher-s-buying-guide-9800/9800pro.jpg

2) ATI 9800 XT OK only for 4x AGP slots
http://themacelite.wikidot.com/local--files/flasher-s-buying-guide-9800/9800xt.jpg

3) ATI HD AGP are OK only for 4x AGP slots, but It's needed a flash ROM Macintosh.

> the Pegasos ignores a video card's onboard BIOS

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7094&forum=11&post_id=73216#73216
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7094&forum=11&post_id=73225#73225

> wasn't it that only ONE ever existed, in the hands of Gunne Steen, of GGS Data?

The only one ever existing "in the wild", yes, I think so. He even ran the web server for his shop (and pegasos.org?) on that machine.

> we'd better forget about adding support for dead old AGP cards. By the time you
> reach it, the cards will be impossible to obtain. Let's support current PCI-e cards.
> Here's one. What? Where'e the thing this plugs into? Solution?

Radeon gfx cards vendors usually have been providing some of their PCIe based Radeon GPU based cards also with AGP and even PCI connectors (via on-card PCIe-to-AGP/PCI bridge obviously). For instance these:

http://www.hisdigital.com/un/product1-47.shtml (AGP up to HD4670 (RV730))
http://www.hisdigital.com/un/product1-48.shtml (PCI up to HD4350 (RV710))
http://www.diamondmm.com/AGP-Video-Cards.php (AGP up to HD4650 (RV730))
http://www.club3d.nl/products/product_graphics_1.cfm (AGP up to HD4670 (RV730), PCI up to HD4350 (RV710))
http://graphics.visiontek.com/video/3000/3000.html (AGP up to HD3850 (RV670))
http://graphics.visiontek.com/video/2000/2000.html (PCI up to HD2400 (RV610))
http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentation/product/?cid=1&psn=000101&gid=4 (AGP up to HD4650 (RV730))
http://www.powercolor.com/global/products_search_VGA.asp?Bus=AGP (AGP up to HD4670 (RV730))
http://www.powercolor.com/global/products_search_VGA.asp?Bus=PCI (PCI up to HD4350 (RV710))

> Choose computers with built-in graphics functions, like the Mac Mini. What a
> pleasant coincidence, it even has a familiar Radeon chip...

I fail to see the advantage regarding GPU support there. Any computer without built-in graphics functions but with AGP or PCI slots could be equipped with for instance a Radeon 9200 card. And you even have the chance to use up to R700 GPU family based cards (see above), driver issues aside that is. With built-in graphics functions (and no AGP/PCI) you cannot upgrade the GPU in any way.
Btw, I believe Mac mini G4 was chosen *because* it had already supported Radeon (among other already supported or rather easy to support things), not the other way round.

I am not sure that that arguing for supporting only built-in video is a good idea, it leaves us with relatively weak GPUs.
As to whether or not we have the CPU power, I used to use a Radeon 9500Pro on a 1 Ghz Athlon XP. I don't think G4 PPCs with similar or faster clock rates would have any problem handling the 9500/9700/9800. Also, if you scan Ebay, you'll find these cards are quite common. They're as easily obtainable as the other Radeons currently supported.
As to Andreas mention of even more advanced ATI cards, I didn't dare to bring those up because I was afraid that I'd be asking too much.
I have a Diamond 4650 AGP video card in an AM2 motherboard in own. It's a remarkable board and the 3850 Andreas mentioned is actually slightly more capable.
Even the 3650 (also available in AGP) isn't a bad card. It bests an Nvidia 6800 in most benchmarks.
There are a lot of good ATI based AGP video cards out there and the prices are quite reasonable.
I only mentioned the 9800 family because it ought to be the easiest to implement.
But Andreas is right. We don't need to worry about not having systems that support PCIe.
many manufacturers still produce up to date AGP cards.

@jim

first step has benn made : Mac Mini G4, EMac G4, incoming PowerMac G4.

I think (hope) we'll see one day driver 2D and 3D for Ati radeon 9800, 9700 ... these cards if correctly supported are very powerful for "Amiga World", and few of them usable also in Pegasos AGP 2x and old PowerMac G4 AGP 2x, and all of them usable in newer PowerMac G4.
The "x86" versions of these cards need also a flash ROM update Macintosh to be used in PowerMac.

More difficult are ATI HD AGP ... only usable with newer PowerMac G4, but It's needed to create a right ROM Macintosh ... not so easy I think.

regards


[ Edited by Divinity on 2010/7/22 17:48 ]

> many manufacturers still produce up to date AGP cards.

That's what *has been* the case. Let's see if HD5000 series ("Evergreen"/R800) will also come with AGP/PCI models. I've yet to spot one.

> Pegasos AGP 2x

As I wrote, Pegasos II has AGP 1x only. AGP 2x cards run at 1x speed in Pegasos II.

> More difficult are ATI HD AGP [...] It's needed to create a right
> ROM Macintosh ... not so easy I think.

Yes, that would be an obstacle which would have to be overcome from within MorphOS I think, if possible at all.

I'm not sure you will see the HD5000 on an AGP card. Currently the 4650 and 4670 are hard pressed to keep up with the older 3850 AGP cards. And manufacturers are aware that motherboards supporting AGP usually do not have support for the more recent/powerful CPUs.
I have one exception I use at home. It's an odd Asrock design that uses the Nforce3 250 chipset (which has an AGP slot), but the board will accept Am2, Am2+, and AM3 processors. I've also seen a few Core 2 boards with AGP slots.
But, the manufacturers of today's higher end AGP video cards don't want to see the buyer's systems CPU bound, so they generally pick GPUs that are a few steps down from the top of the line.
Believe me, were MorphOS to support HD3650 or 4560 video cards the improvement in fps would be amazing (several times that of our current cards).
GPUs above that level would probably not be beneficial as they would be CPU bound.

Divinity has a point too. Converting 9800 series cards to Mac compatibility is fairly easy. As I don't know where you'd get a G4 compatible video card BIOS for these higher end cards, we might have to come up with a different solution to using them.
Perhaps, if MorphOS was installed with a currently compatible card and the drivers loaded for the new card. Once the computer was restarted (with the new video card) MorphOS could access the card w/o an Apple BIOS.

Quote:

I know :) but used the name "AGP 2x" only for the voltage :)

> I know :) but used the name "AGP 2x" only for the voltage :)

Then why not use the proper term "AGP 1.0"? That would include 1x as well as 2x speed, both at 3.3 V.

Quote:

I don't think so. For a start, you need another computer to reflash the card, and it must have a compatible slot.

It's a new burden anyway, yet another hurdle for users that can put them away MorphOS. Of course, the PowerMac usually comes with the video card. But perhaps there's some with its video card missing, because it was a rare item, sold separately.

Which brings up the case of setting up a (admittedly very small) business of making and selling refurbished computers with MorphOS, instead of the very entertaining (and mandatory) do-it-yourself that forms part of our history.

Quote:

Afaik Mac cards have their ROM that does the init.

@jcmarcos

here the flash ROM I have made time ago for PowerMac FW800/MDD and Quicksilver

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6893&forum=3#70868